Mixing/Mastering

Make some music, have some musical tips or questions ? Well, why not bung them in here !
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seedy
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Mixing/Mastering

Post by seedy »

i'm getting there!
still a good chunk of editing left to do but i'm starting to brainstorm and look ahead to the next phase of cleaning everything up and putting some polish on it. zero doubt i have no clue what to do and my ears are not trained to hear the problems i likely have in my mix.


SO......first out of the gate - do you have a standard workflow as you go through the typical mixing tasks?

and just a bunch of random thoughts and questions:
-how do you know when a track needs compression? when it needs more than one compressor?
-EQ before compression or is it the opposite or none of the above?
-EQ/compressor/limiting etc. on the mix bus?
-how do you approach panning? i feel like i have zero inkling as to what would sound tasteful
-preferred softwares for these tasks?
-i already have a bunch of volume fader envelopes set......yet i keep reading about "pull all faders to zero and then start with drums....then add bass.....etc.etc."....i can't do this without deleting my envelopes which contain important fades and tweaks......am i die?
-visual aids? like i said....my ears are going to be of little help here - anything that can visually show me areas that need improvement would be invaluable


any advice beyond this is naturally very welcome! links to tutorials etc. would be great too

spooky stage for me - there is no way my tune will ever be branded anything but "amateur" but i know it's not the worst thing in the world so i really hope i can make it gel better. i just have zero clue where to begin and i have low confidence. listening to my mix today sounds pretty dang good to me - though i know it needs *something*
and a pro would just laugh it out of his studio :lol:
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by Mr Royale »

In electronic music compression is not as necessary as it is with live stuff which is usually more dynamic. But it can still help a synth line cut through, especially when filter changes result in jumps in sound, or you want to bring a sound to the fore. It is easy to get wrong so always A/b and make sure the output is the same as the bypassed channel as it is very easy to fool yourself that loud = good.

You can EQ before or after compression or both. I would suggest that compression first is better as you have a solid level to work the EQ on, but EQing out some sound (i.e. low end) before the compressor will change how it responds to the dynamics.

Avoid any main mix bus compression or limiting until you know what you might want out of using it. It is better to eq and compress a whole mix afterwards, or get it mastered properly: a mastering engineer will know what is best for the overall mix.

Panning is much about taste, but a mono track will usually sound a bit flat. Panning can help separate out clashing sounds (but you should avoid clashing sounds when writing the track anyway) but when heard in mono (on a phone etc) those sounds may get muddy again, so don't use it fix a mix. Bass is often better centrally panned, especially very low stuff, but you can stil pan it if it sounds right (I'd not recommend it on a sub though).

I use Cubase - but use what you get on with, rather than what is recommended - they all do a good job these days.

If you don't want to adjust faders, then try a gain plug in to alter the level. In future I would suggest not applying fades until the mix process.

As a visual aid you can use a spectrum analyzer which can help spot sounds you may not notice on your monitors, such as very low bass.

I would suggest that you should try to remove all low frequency energy from sounds that don't need it, leaving more space for those that do such as kicks and bass. Don't overdo it though as you'll wind up with a thin sounding track.

Best way to work is quickly and take breaks. Do a mix, listen to it on other systems and headphones, take notes and mix again. Don't over egg the pudding though with effects and compression. If something isn't working, mute it and see if it is better without it or re-record the part in a different octave. Post it up and get feedback from others and try to set yourself a target to finish the mix, otherwise it may never be finished. don't be afraid to move on and start something new and consigning the current stuff to the learning experience. It takes a long time to get what you want out of music; a never-ending learning curve.

Have fun - that is the important thing to keep in mind. :)
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seedy
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by seedy »

great thanks for all the words - i'm just a total sponge at this stage and take everything in :)

yeah in the end i'm going to save all of my raw stems so that i have a the chance to take a stab at this again some day if i want to.
that and well i'm just looking forward to closing this chapter!


you're backing a thought that i've had recently and it's that these soft synths don't need compression like a mic'd recording.
initially i thought i would be compressing every single track even if very minute - now i'm thinking i might end up skipping some tracks altogether?


what do you mean by this - "if you don't want to adjust faders, then try a gain plug in to alter the level. In future I would suggest not applying fades until the mix process."

do i need to alter the level?
after enough digging i've found some people in this world that "mix as they go along" and that's surely been my approach. constantly playing back and tweaking the effects and envelopes to sound exactly like i want it - as they continue to compose.
i wonder what the biggest offense of this is - i get the idea of starting with drums then bass etc. building the foundation and i get that you want those sounds to be strong on their own.......but isn't it possible that i could have a pretty solid mix in terms of my volume faders as it stands? could i not just solo or mute tracks to analyze them in isolation?
makes sense that with newly adding EQ and compression many of my envelopes will have to change - so i can surely see this pitfall/some extra work

idk......i've made mental notes through this -> "this sounds weird but i'm going to do XYZ to it down the road"
other things i just can't ignore - "i can't work on these sounds that fade in without knowing how the associated fade OUT of the other instruments will sound.....thus i need to create that fade out right now"


ugh so much to learn ALWAYS!
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mcbpete
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by mcbpete »

Simple tip for EQing - cut what you don't want rather than boost what you do want. It's help stop things fighting for attention. And I second taking a break on the track before mixing - I've started to upload the track I'm working on onto my phone (my mp3 player) and then whilst walking outside put on that track, you usually notice things in the mix that you were totally blind to when you were mixing and composing at the same time.
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Ross
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by Ross »

Yeah, make a rough mixdown to listen to. Usually after listening to other tracks - either your own, or other people's - when you come back you'll have a clearer idea of what it 'should' sound like, and you'll be able to go in and focus entirely on mixing.
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by Mr Royale »

seedy wrote:
what do you mean by this - "if you don't want to adjust faders, then try a gain plug in to alter the level. In future I would suggest not applying fades until the mix process."

do i need to alter the level?
after enough digging i've found some people in this world that "mix as they go along" and that's surely been my approach. constantly playing back and tweaking the effects and envelopes to sound exactly like i want it - as they continue to compose.
i wonder what the biggest offense of this is - i get the idea of starting with drums then bass etc. building the foundation and i get that you want those sounds to be strong on their own.......but isn't it possible that i could have a pretty solid mix in terms of my volume faders as it stands? could i not just solo or mute tracks to analyze them in isolation?
makes sense that with newly adding EQ and compression many of my envelopes will have to change - so i can surely see this pitfall/some extra work
If you have applied automation to faders for effect when making the track (which is what I presume you meant, but I could be wrong there) then you won't want to touch the fader to balance the sound - this is where a gain inert plug in can allow you to raise or lower the gain of the track. In Cubase each channel has a gain already in place; some others don't as far as I know.

It is natural to mix as you compose, but I would avoid doing fader automation until mixing, but you could always bounce/print the track in question, mute the original and then apply adjustments to the new track/s.

+1 to the cut over boost comment on EQ. And again always A/B with levels matched as best you can.
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by Mr Royale »

mcbpete wrote:I've started to upload the track I'm working on onto my phone (my mp3 player) and then whilst walking outside put on that track, you usually notice things in the mix that you were totally blind to when you were mixing and composing at the same time.
I upload to Dropbox and listen back via the app on my phone through a little MiniRig speaker in the kitchen. Restricted speakers tell a different story :)
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seedy
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by seedy »

with the suggestion to bounce the tracks in question - this would be keeping the automation intact?
so that the track i print has the fades i need etc. and then i'm just tweaking the overall volume of this new track via that fader?


one other thing - so say i follow the standard process and "start with the drums"
once i get that compressed/EQ/pan etc how i want it - what fader level do i set this at before adding the next track i.e. the bass?

using an extreme - having my drums run at 0db (or whatever upwards limit) wouldn't be a good idea because then i'll have no room to move that fader up if i find the need down the road as i add more tracks.
and with that if i set it too low i could lose the opportunity to lower it more should i also find that need?


ugh i can't explain myself well today
work deadlines gots me braindedz :?
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mcbpete
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by mcbpete »

seedy - this was the very first site that I went to where things started to make sense mix-wise. Honestly it was an absolute revelation when I found this page: http://tweakheadz.com/eq-and-the-limits-of-audio/

(then later, some more from the same place - http://tweakheadz.com/the-perfect-mix-n ... l-touches/ )
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seedy
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by seedy »

oh yes i know of tweakheadz and i've read both of those two!

i feel like that one, gearslutz, and kvr are where i'm getting the most info
occasionally your other home as well :)
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mcbpete
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by mcbpete »

Ahhh cool - I use KVR for a lot of product reviews/discussions (plus the always welcome developer challenges to snatch quality free plugins - http://www.kvraudio.com/kvr-developer-challenge/2014/ ) but never for tips, will have to check it out !
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by Mr Royale »

I would start with drums peaking the main output around -18dBFS or so. Think of the main mixbus as a glass and the sound as water; you can only fill the glass so far before it is full to the brim, so keep levels low and aim for the whole mix peaking at less than -3dBFS, ideally around -6 to -8.
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seedy
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by seedy »

thanks mr royale this is exactly what i was wondering!

reading a bunch about "gain staging" today ;)
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tryptych
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by tryptych »

Hahaha, I'm bumping this topic. Learning mixing took me almost ten years. But I'm finally there (somewhere that I'm satisfied with) :) To get the results I'm happy with, it just took the most CPU heavy Neve modelling plugins and thousands of hours of practice and experimenting. But I'm finally there. My method is this (keep in mind, these are all extremely accurate analog modelling plugins. Not "real" gear. I never could afford that and doing this IRL would be a HUGE pita if not impossible):

NOTE! Good monitoring is absolutely necessary. Without it, you basically just can't mix. There's NO way around that. I have cheap-ass monitors that simply aren't accurate enough in the mid frequency range so they just won't cut it. They just don't. That's why I use headphones and use the speakers for more "musical" listening. Basically what you want is accurate, detailed and flat.

- Instrument groups: preamp -> EQ -> compressor -> tape.

EQ from there. I mix as I go. I hate doing that shit afterwards and find it very difficult to continue making stuff if something sounds like shit. Also I find it way harder to revisit them later because the frequencies affect each other. If some individual track needs some minor tweaking I just use the native plugins, otherwise the projects get way too CPU heavy for any modern processor to handle. The tapes usually help to get EQ curve right on the fly so most of the time less equalizing is needed. It also adds some saturation (color/bite) and minor compression which sounds good.

- Master buss: console -> compressor -> EQ -> tape

I "drive" the console pretty hard to add some more saturation.. then I usually compress around 2-3 dB, cut the middle freq area pretty heavily and then run it into Otari mastering tape. That's it.

Musically speaking, I first try to make as balanced mix as possible. Then I usually sleep on it and listen it first thing in the morning and fix some issues that immediately become apparent when your ears are rested. Then I start to bring the "hook" instruments forward by adding gain, do some stereo field editing, possibly some aggressive compression and saturation on some instruments. Then I take a break. Then I listen to it again. Repeat :D

Mixing is probably the most challenging task I've ever fucking taken. It takes a TON of practice, it's something that you never thought of when started making music.
from the source flows the endless...
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epitome
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Re: Mixing/Mastering

Post by epitome »

Sorry if this is a bit off topic but...

I want to get into making some music, just for fun, but really have no idea where to start. I've dabbled before - years ago using Fruity Loop Studio on my PC, and more recently I played around with Logic on my fiancée's Mac.

So a few questions for you gurus:
1. Which is better - PC or Mac? And which software do I need? Ideally I would like to do it on my PC, as I don't get to use the Mac much!
2. Does it matter that I can't play any actual instruments? I did get by before, without using any pre-made loops, just creating my own in the software, but it did feel like a bit of a pain (mainly because I don't know what I'm doing).
3. Is there a list of equipment/software that I pretty much need for making anything worthwhile?

Thanks :)
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